Category: Animal House
Since I got my dog I have had two people come up to me about children taking a service dog to school with them.
apparently a couple had sued the schools for not letting their child take the dog with them to school and without grownup supervition to help out with it... The child is a younger one I believe, Under highschool.
I am just starting to hear about this and wanted some of your thoughts on the matter.
When I think of my dog I think about how she can be a hand full sometimes and how I think it would take a mature person to keep her undercontrol at all times. Sometimes she has to go potty off schedule and sometimes she gets the bright idea to do something she isn't suppose to. I told these things to the lady today who I was speaking with about it and she said that the dog only goes a couple times a day and that part wouldn't be an issue but mine goes a few times a day and sometimes she goes number 2 at different times of the day. How would a young child handle it if the dog tries to misbehave? What if they aren't mature enough to fully take on a dog on their own?
What are your thoughts on this?
Simple, kids shouldn't have service dogs.
Yeah, I'm gunna have to go with SL on this one. Having a service animal takes a great deal of maturity and responsibility. I can't imagine a young child having enough of either of these qualities to handle a service dog at school. Besides, there's allot of training involved.
I don't know of any dog guide schools who'll issue a dog to a handler under age 16. I can't speak for other schools for other disabilities but nevertheless, allowing a child to take an animal to school just seems like it would be a bad idea for many reasons.
Guiding Eyes gives dogs to autistic children.
They shouldn't.
I agree. no child, autistic or not, should have a guide dog. they're nowhere near mature enough to handle such responsibilities. although there are different degrees of autism, those who have a severe case of it, aren't capable of providing for themselves, let alone a human or animal. so, stupid on whichever guide dog school gives them to them.
Hmm I had always thought that guide dogs people had to be self-sufficient in order to acquire one of those.
Another side to the issue is, I think these other types of service animals may be a detriment to guide dogs when they are all lumped together. When I was running stores, I had several problems with semi-wild animals said to be service animals snuffling and grubbing about in my store. I know some people on here have stories, whether authentic or not, about so-called bad handling by some blind guide dog user, but honestly I doubt they stand a candle's chance of competition with these animals. As someone who is also blind, I didn't even really know if a guide dog was even there, they were so quiet, unless its owner gave it instructions to go forward or sit down or something when we were serving them. Not so with these other half-feral animals rambling about.
I think personally the guide dog schools should distance themselves from other people who do those therapy pets or whatever the psychology word for it is. The real deal is the guide dogs and their owners are a lot closer to the rescue dogs I've seen, or other working dogs, rather than these other therapy animals. It's a state by state thing, is what I was told as a store proprietor, and some states like California require certification while others like Oregon do not.
I'm guessing your guide dogs all have papers, though I would have never even considered asking a guide dog handler to produce any: their animal was, as I said, quiet and quite invisible to a blind store owner; that should tell you something about their behavior. I didn't like having to accept those therapy creatures in my stores because they could be wantonly destructive if we weren't watching. I just think they shouldn't be even classified the same.
I have to wonder, what service does a dog perform for an autistic child? What does the dog do exactly?
I mean, guide dogs guide, wheelchair dogs open doors and stuff, police dogs bite your ass, hearing dogs tell you if there's a sound, insolen dogs tell you when your blood sugar is low, and they even have those dogs that tell you when you're about to have a seizure. What does a dog do for an autistic kid?
I was wondering the same thing, Cody, but forgot to ask that all important question earlier.
I think there are some people in high school who are mature enough to have a service animal, though these people are very few and far between.
Well first off this child isn't autistic. The child has seizures and some other issues and is quite young, under the age of eight. Might even be four but I am not quite sure. Sorry about that.
And for children who are autistic.
The dog is tethered to them and if the kid tries to take off from the parents, the dog will lie down and keep the kid from running away from the parents. The dog also helps calm them down and things when the kid has fits.
In these cases, it is the parent’s responsibility to take care of the dog and to make sure the dog is doing what it is suppose to, not the child.
This is not the case with this child. The child takes the dog to school and the parents aren't there.
Sorry, a dog is not needed in that instance, a baby leash is. I know I'm not a parent, and a lot of parents will say its not so easy, but if you have a kid, especially one with autism or some other disease, you should watch them. If you can't, hook them to yourself. If you can't do that, don't have a kid.
I can see the helping to calm them down thing, but that can be said of teddybears and rum too. (sarcasm, I'm not actuallly advocating getting children drunk).
A four year old has no business having a dog at all, pet, service animal or otherwise. That doubles when at school. Dogs have no place being in a classroom of children. I don't even like taking my own dog in there.
Hell, I go into college classrooms, and I still can't get the students from talking to her and petting her. You're going to tell me the dog pays attention in a room full of four year olds? Sure, and soon golden bricks are going to start pouring out of my nose.
my thoughts exactly, Cody.
I had my guide dog with me in highschool, but I took care of him myself. Autism dogs are like therapy dogs. They serve their purpose quite well, from what I've seen. though not sure if a kid should have one. perhaps if he or she has an aid who can help care for it.
From what I have read, child who are autistic and has a service dog do much better overall. The responsibility of helping to take care of the dog along with the parents, like feeding it, has some positive effects on the kids. So even though a leash strapping an autistic to the parent might seem like a workable method and can be one, I believe that a dog also adds to that by having a stronger calming effect that a teddy bear doesn't have as much for the child.
Even though with all this said. I am still a bit put off at the idea of a child taking a service animal to school without the supervision of the parents. I feel as if taking service animals any place should fall under the responsibility of that person who is taking it, not the public or the other people there. I have a guide dog and I don't expect the transportation driver or the store employee to manage my dog while I am out and about. A friend did bring up that some children goes to school needing medication and have things like feeding tubes that the school is left managing. But I would think that a nurse would handle all this, not the class room teacher. So what will the school do, higher a service animal care taker for this child or what? I would like to learn more about the details of children with service animals in school and such. All this makes me wonder if responsibilities are being forced on schools that shouldn't be.
I haven't read the full thread, but isn't there normally a lower age restriction n most countries for applying for a service dog or any other animal? If so, the person would have to be above that age and responsible enough to use the dog in the first place.
If the kid has to have a feeding tube, I would think they're attending some kind of specialized school, not a regular public school, in which case there are trained staff to take care of these things. Why would a kid need a dog in that case? Hell, why does a kid need a dog at all? I agree with what everybody else is saying here. It's one thing for a family to have a pet dog, and I'm sure that would have a calming effect on the child even if it wasn't specially trained. Pets do usually have a positive effect on mental health. But this just sounds ridiculous to me.
Kids with feeding tubes are in normal public schools. and i am about to post the artical in a second as soon as I get it all coppied.
I want to correct a mistake I made. I was told by someone who knows the family some how that the child has seizures but it doesn't say this in the artical. Sorry if that part is wrong.
Family sues to get son's service dog in school .
NewsChannel 36
WCNC.com
CATAWBA COUNTY, N.C. -- The vest that wraps around his golden fur reads "service dog," but Chatham, a 3-year old goldendoodle, is not bred for the purpose most often associated with that term. Chatham's special training helps him to help manage the behavioral disabilities of 4-year-old Ayden Silva, and his status is now at the center of a federal lawsuit filed this week against the Catawba County Board of Education.
Ayden Silva's parents say the school district's decision not to allow Ayden's 80-pound service dog in his pre-K classroom violates the Americans with Disabilities Act, and seriously impedes the progress they've made in helping their adoptive son manage his disabilities.
Ayden was diagnosed with fetal alcohol syndrome when he was just 2 years old. (He's been with the Silvas since he was 8 months.) The associated brain damage manifests itself with obsessive-compulsive behavior, insomnia, and hyperactivity. His mother Jennifer says Ayden is prone to "melt downs" that can be brought on by simple stimuli like crowds or lights.
"The way it's been described to us from the doctors is like a short circuit. His brain just goes crazy because it doesn’t know how to interpret all the messages that the nerves are sending," Silva said. "When he melts, he has self aggression issues. He bangs his head, bites himself. He’ll slap himself--anything to try to make it stop."
The Silvas tried a number of different kinds of treatments and therapies, but eventually settled on a relatively new solution--a service dog. They found a trainer who found them a hypo-allergenic Goldendoodle they've named Chatham. They paid $7,500 to have him trained to help them manage their son.
Chatham wears a harness that identifies him as a service dog and, in public, is tethered to Ayden to keep him from suddenly running away. When Ayden melts down, Chatham puts his own body across him. Silva says it's called "deep pressure therapy" and both comforts her son, and keeps him from hurting himself.
This fall, when the Silvas entered Ayden in a pre-kindergarten program at Mountain View Elementary School near their Vale home, they thought that Chatham would go along.
"We set him up with the tools that we knew worked prior to him ever stepping foot in the school," Jennifer Silva explained. But after several weeks, they were told Ayden couldn't bring his dog to class.
Why the district made that decision is not exactly clear. Staff did meet with the family on several occasions, but the school board's attorney says further disclosure is against privacy rules.
Certainly, Ayden's age may be a factor. There is some concern, in the dog training industry, about a child so young managing a service animal. Or could it be other children? The Silvas are adamant that Chatham's training would keep him from being a distraction, even in a classroom full of 4 year olds.
In a statement, Crystal Davis explained, "Catawba County Board of Education is committed to the needs, rights and protection of all persons with disabilities and denies allegations that the school system has discriminated against this student. The school system acknowledges having worked diligently with the family and having had multiple meetings with the family to discuss and plan services for the student. Catawba County Board of Education declines to release confidential student information beyond that which has been set out in the complaint, however, it will respond formally to the motion and complaint as required by court rules."
The Silvas are represented by lawyers from the group Disability Rights NC.
"Disability Rights hopes that the public and especially school systems understand the importance of service animals for behavioral challenges such as Ayden," Holly Stiles said. "They’ve put Ayden in an impossible position. They’ve asked Ayden to choose between working with his service animal, who’s highly trained to help him with his disabilities, and receiving an education."
Jennifer Silva says the months that Ayden and Chatham have been separated have already begun to wear on their relationship, on Chatham's training, and on her son's behavior. Ayden now leaves school several hours early to give him more time at home. She says he'd suffered from separation anxiety when the school year began.
"Eventually it got to the point where he was sleeping with Chatham’s leash in his hand because he was so afraid that Chatham was going to leave him in the middle of the night," she said, crying. ""The big question now is can we preserve it. Can we get them back together soon enough to preserve the training and to let this dog know that he has a very big job to do?"
The lawsuit asks for an immediate permanent injunction that would allow Chatham to go to school with Ayden. It also asks for damages to cover the cost of any retraining the Silvas deem necessary now.
ehttp://www.wcnc.com/news/local/Family-sues-to-get-sons-service-dog-in-school-118057864.html
after reading the article, this is a thousand times more ridiculous than I felt initially.
as harsh as this may sound, I feel like the parents are putting a bandade on their kid by using this "helpful" (in quotes) dog so that they don't have to be as responsible in nurturing his needs.
the real issue, though, as has been said, is the fact a child has a dog to begin with.
Wow, I have sooooo much to say on this issue now but had surgery today so am on major pain killers. Thus not thinking clearly. Be back to comment in a day or two. lol
Laughable, absolutely laughable. Find me a guide dog owner who has never had their dog be a distraction, and I'll show you a guide dog owner who has never left their house. Like I said, I go into college classrooms, and its a distraction. The training of the dog won't keep the kids from seeing that there's a dog in the classroom.
Also, it worries me that they found a trainer and paid for it themselves. I have to wonder, and I'm not saying it isn't, but I wonder if this dog is licensed. Is this therapy accredited? Is this peer reviewed, or whatever it is they call it in the therapy world?
Honestly, though I don't claim to be an expert, the term deep pressure therapy sounds like a crock. It sounds like a glorified hug.
Finally, and this is just my personal feeling. The baby has fetal alcohol syndrome, which means mommy couldn't get out of the bottle while she was pregnant. I'm sorry, I lose all respect for her parenting at that point.
he is an adoptive child so this doesn't mean his adoptive mother is a bad parent, just his biological one.
Ah, sorry, I missed that point. It doesn't change the facts about the dog though.
I did a quick google search, and there are body wraps that perform this same function. Even the website for "Little angels" who trains therapy dogs says you have to be physically and financially able to care for the dog, which that kid clearly isn't.
In addition to that, the kid is highly attached to this dog, and the dog is three. That means optimistically that dog has eleven or so years left of life. Maybe five left of working. So when the boy is nine, he has to deal with retiring a dog. You think he's prepared for that? Hell, I'm twenty three and I'm not prepared for that. No one is prepared for that. Children shouldn't have to go through that.
Second, the dog is eighty pounds, that is a lot of weight. I had a dog who weighed just over that and literally pulled me off my feet once. This little four year old is holding the leash of a very powerful animal. One lapse in training and that kid is a bloodsmear on the sidewalk. One squirrel, or frisby or something. Plus, does the kid have the strength to properly correct the dog? Don't tell me the training means he doesn't get corrected. All dogs lapse in training, they're dogs.
I understand the need for the therapy, but the dog is too much a responnsibility. Let him use a body wrap while at school, and get him a pet for while he's at home.
Cody's posts are making a ton of sense. All accomodations are about compromise. For those of you iFools who text on the schoolbus and have these notetakers and things in your classroom, some of us went to school when what you had was a Braille writer (for certain things like Math), a typewriter, and a slate, and that was it. I'm not saying that was a better time: I'd have to be a religious fool idiot to say so. But even in those admittedly far more difficult times, it was all about compromise when it comes to getting acomodations.
And, guess what, it still is. Cody's done some research and found out about this body wrap: well, that's an accomodation that could suffice. truth is, none of us who are disabled ever really get what we want. And anyone asked to accomodate us in any way ever gets wha they want, namely to have to do absolutely nothing extra for us. Admittedly, I don't know how the mentaly impaired like him are able to survive and compete in the dog-eat-dog world we've created, where nothing but wit and grit will save you ever. I tend to wonder like Cody about the trainer situation. Were they sold a bill of goods? We're looking at a pair of adoptive parents who are admittedly trying their level best with a very difficult situation. Someone may have come along with an answer Most kids aren't even allowed a pet until they are capable of feeding and caring for the pet. And a working dog is not a pet. I'm with Cody: I don't get the therapy language. I admit I never really have; it fails to make sense to me most of the time. Too loose and citing testimonial experiences rather than provable evidence. And the law is about evidence that can be demonstrated.
I tend to agree. There's a certainly leel of maturity needed to properly care for an animal and I've never met a kid that age, Autistic or not, who possessed that level of maturity. Now if we were talking about a High Schooler with a guide dog and the school tried to bar access then I think the family would actually have a case.
I even question many teens having access to a service animal, but that may be another topic. You've got to be mature enough not to stress and melt down all the time, have to vent every other minute, and maintain control of your faculties. Digging myself into a hole by saying this, but this goes for chicks as well as guys, even though the current political climate would say otherwise. You've got to BE the master with those animals to keep them under control. I just don't see too many teens with a level enough head to manage their finances, homework, or even keep the batteries charged on their plethora of devices / not lose chargers and batteries, let alone care for and manage a service animal.
Go ahead, fire away kids.
Leo, I got my dog when I was seventeen, a month before my 18th birthday, and I was questioning whether I was ready. There were people who were nearly sixty in my class, and I don't feel they were ready for a dog. So while I completely agree with you that the vast majority of teens do not need a dog, and cannot handle a dog, and absolutely no child should ever have a dog, I have to add that many adults do not need them either.
For example, there was a man about fifty in my class. He pulled the fire alarm thinking it was the doorknob, could not navigate a simple ninety-degree hallway, and had no idea how to use a cane. He had no need for a dog, and could not take care of a dog. I was horrified that he graduated with one.
So, fire back adults.
Wow! All I can say is I hope you, at 17, shamed him into getting himself together. And yeah it is pretty humbling when you see some 16 17 and 18-year-olds who are more grown up than some of the Baby Boom generation. Then again you kids have had it a lot rougher growing up than the Baby Boomers, somewhat rougher than us Generation X people, but those two generations - Boomers and yours - are so disparate from one another it's a bit like two planets colliding.
I was too busy to whip him into shape. Guide dog school takes it out of you, let me tell you. Especially if you do it in June, in florida.
although I'm not a guide dog user myself, I must say that Cody's point about age not necessarily being a factor, is very valid.
Well like everything else in life it varies depending on each person. And you have to be able to stand up for your rights in a diplomatic manner if you run into rouble and not be meek and submissive like that idiot who let her guide dog be put in the trunk of a taxi. Again maybe cars in other countries are built in such a way as to make that safe or at least reasonably so, but I've never seena car in the US with a trunk that I'd feel comfortable putting any dog in let alone a service dog.
So many things, where to begin? GEB does not train autism dogs for blind autistic children to use as guide dogs. They train guide dogs for adults and teens who are blind to do guide work, and their autism program is a seperate entity. There is no reason that a child with a lidgitimate disability shouldn't have a service dog, however how and when this dog will be utalized really depends on the type of disability, the situation and many other factors. For instance, for a child with a very severe seizure disorder that causes multiple seizures per week, who has a service dog who has 90% accuracy or better at detecting and alerting to seizures in enough time to administer medication, get the child to a safe place, etc, then that dog belongs in school with the child. This can be accomplished with exttensive and careful training of an unusually responsible and mature child who is physically strong enough to control their dog, or who has a small breed dog, or who can correctly and humanely utalize special collars to maintain control of a large breed dog, despite a lack of the physical brute strength to do so. Also, the dog can be crated in the room with the younger child, and transfered to other classrooms to follow the child on leash by someone contracted by and paid by the parents or the school district depending on the state in question, until the child is old enough, strong enough and responsible enough to handle their own dog. A service dog can be handled by the parents of the child when in public and in the home, and handling responsibility can be gradually transfered over as the child gets older. For instance, I know of a girl who uses a wheelchair and has had a service dog since age 3. She is now 6. In the beginning the parents issued the commands and the girl coppied them, learning what to do. By age 4 she issued most commands herself inside the home, and in public, with the parents backing her up if the dog wasn't compliant or lost focus. At age 5, she utalized the dog with no real help at all in the home, and with supervision, but no help from her parents in public. At age 6 she started taking her dog to school. Now, we are talking about a very gentle, very well-trained dog, who has had a long working relationship with the girl, who is not a brandnew 2 or 3 year old dog, but at this point a 5 year old dog, where the girl utalizes whistle training, clicker training, a pinch collar, utalized safely and properly, and daily intensive obediants routines with her dog. This dog allows her to transfer in and out of her own wheelchair, where most children with her type of limitations must be lifted by adults. The dog picks up dropped items, turns on light switches, can remove items from or place them on high shelves or counters, can help her roll over in bed, and can help by pulling the chair when the upperbody strength of a first grader just isn't up to the task of a steeper incline. This is not the norm, but every situation is different. A guide dog school in Canada, I think it is the Meera Foundation issues guides to children as young as 12, but they obviously don't accept just any 12 year old. I got my first guide at 16 years old, but honestly, I could have handled 1 at 13 or 14, but I also grew up in a home with guide dogs all of my life. I don't think the average 13 or 14 year old could handle a guide dog properly. The key components are A. the child or someone paid by the parents must be in charge of the dog at school, not anyone who works for the district, as they aren't trained to handle the dog, and it's not their job, they have other accademic things to be worrying about, and other students as well. B. The dog must maintain good behavior appropriate to a class room, and this should be demonstrated ahead of time by bringing the dog for some test visits to the classroom, preferably with a trainer from whichever school the dog was issued by. C. The parents must be very involved with both the advocacy aspect and with the logistics of such an arrangement as well. To those posters saying a dog doesn't belong in a classroom at all. Hello? Haven't you ever heard of blind elementary and even primary and preschool teachers who have guide dogs? I did a teaching practicum in a classroom full of 5, 6 and 7 year olds and they and my dog were just fine. Heck, my dog does fine during story time at the library and when visiting my son's preschool where infants and toddlers are all over the place. If you don't know what you're talking about, either ask questions, instead of just spewing unfounded blather, or shut up. Don't get me started on autism service dogs though, because that's a whole other rant right there. Maybe I'll post on that later.
Two things. I'm not trying to be snarky, but how in the world does a dog administer medication? that process can't be remotely hygenic, but correct me if I'm wrong there. Secondly, I don't think anyone was taking issue with the fact that the dog was in a classroom. It's one thing when a responsible adult is caring for their guide dog, they have a good working relationship, and the dog lays under a desk or in a designated area of the classroom while the teacher is teaching. But a kid might not always say no to requests to pet the dog, or might not even understand the seriousness of how that could dismantle the dog's training. If a kid can handle that amount of responsibility, more power to them. But i don't think the average child can, and that's through no fault of their own. It's just the physiology, or even primitiveness, of a child's ability to draw the line from point A to point B and understand the consequences of not very well defined actions.
To the first point. I was unclear, my fault. I'm not saying that the dog can administer the medication. I'm saying that the dog can alert to the seizure in enough time that a preventative medication can be given, the sort of medication that can't be given constantly to prevent or lessin seizures because it would be toxic if taken constantly and or would delay or compermise the development and fiunctioning of a child. I hope that's more clear. I appoligize. Secondly, there was a poster up there somewhere who posted a super short response basically saying that dogs don't belong in the class room at all, with no qualifiers, and seeming to mean that no dogs, of any sort should be in a class room for any reason. I was responding to that statement in particular. And you are right that it is the rare child who can manage their own service dog, but it does happen.
ah, got ya. I had a really bad visual about the medication thing. But you're right, dogs are basically smart animals, if trained properly.
I don't think this kid needs to have the dog at school, either. As for kids and guide dogs, I started working with my dog when I was nine and he was six weeks old. i trained him how to be a guide dog for myself. I took him to school a few times once I had him trained, and he did fabulously!! I was a freshman in high school then, so, I was 15 years old. I also took him in eighth grade, too. Again, it all depends on the level of maturity of the person involved. But a kid of four having a dog? No way!!
Take Care,
dawnielle
"But a kid of four having a dog. No way." So, you oppose a 4 year old with a serious seizure disorder having a medical alert dog in the home? You disagree with a physical assist dog helping a 4 year old in their own home so they can have increased autonomy? You object to a parent paying someone to handle a service dog in a school for their 4 year old who can be greatly and lidgitimately helped by a service dog? How close minded are you? Very. I never suggested that any four year old should have a guide dog, or that most 4 year old disabled children should have service dogs, but if you can't see the place in school for a properlhy supervised, well-trained service dog for a child who genuinely needs one and can benifit from one, then shame on you. Also, if you owner trained your dog, really did a good and proper job of it, then why didn't your dog accompany you to school daily? I suspect that either A. you didn't really properly and fully train your dog as a lidgitimate guide dog and so didn't take it to school regularly or B. if you did do a proper job of it, then you were to afraid to stand up for your rights to have that dog in school, and again, shame on you for not fully and properly utalizing a trained service dog that you put all that effort into training. Either way, somethings not adding up with your post. If I missed something or misunderstood something, then please, by all means, clarify for me/us and we can continue discussing this.